I was responding to some extremely well written and insightful comments by PenguinPoop reader Jorenz. As my thoughts began to flow, I realized I had the crux of a full-blown article. Thank you, Jorenz, for providing both the fuel and the inspiration.
While fellow PenguinPooper Other Rick and frequent commenter Dee have been critical of coach Mike Sullivan’s work through a mostly lackluster regular season, I’ve been more neutral. After all, “Sully” led us to back-to-back Cups. It’s hard to point a finger at a guy who’s enjoyed so much success. There’s no question he knows the game.
However, every coach has a shelf life. Heck, Chicago fired Joel Quenneville…the dean of NHL coaches…following a remarkably successful 11-season run in the Windy City. As unthinkable as it may seem, is Sullivan approaching his expiration date, too?
The Pens don’t seem to be a happy bunch these days…nor especially engaged or motivated. I have all-too-frequent flashbacks to the end of the Michel Therrien era, when Sidney Crosby walked around with a toque pulled down near his eyes and Max Talbot remarked, “Nobody wanted to come to the rink.”
Therrien’s mostly successful black-and-gold tenure lasted 272 games. Ironically, the exact same number Sullivan’s coached in the Steel City.
Another ironic twist? Toward the end of his reign, Therrien juggled his forward lines at a maddening pace…as if it were the only adjustment he knew how to make. An all-too-familiar trait of Sullivan’s, too.
I’m not suggesting the New England native’s a Therrien clone. The latter was notoriously hard on his players. However, there are similarities. Both preach accountability. Neither is known to sugar coat. Both tend to reinforce their message in a somewhat relentless fashion that can wear a team down over time and lead to burn out.
It happened to the Penguins back in 2009…oddly in the midst of a Stanley Cup campaign. I wonder if it’s happening again. We don’t seem to have any hop or juice…at least not on a consistent basis.
Initially, I thought Sullivan was a different breed of coach…one who could walk the admittedly fine line between disciplining his players while still motivating and supporting them. A blend of Therrien and another ex-Pens skipper, Dan Bylsma. Now I’m not so sure.
I’ve never been inside the Penguins’ locker room. Nor have I attended a practice session. So I truly don’t know the details of how Sullivan communicates with his players. During interviews he comes off as thoughtful, passionate, composed and well-spoken. He has a reputation for being honest, straightforward and direct…all admirable qualities.
Perhaps more than a bit stubborn and set in his ways. Attributes that worry me.
It’s important to hold guys accountable, Lord knows. However, like a pitcher in baseball, you’ve got to change speeds once a while. You have to know when to press and when to ease off. Given his intense nature, I’m not sure Sully does.
Several of our commenters, including Jorenz and Dee, noted things began to deteriorate when assistant coach Rick Tocchet joined the Coyotes. I wholeheartedly agree. Sullivan and Tocchet enjoyed a relationship dating back to their playing careers and shared lots of trust and mutual respect. I’m sure the assistant willingly reinforced his boss’s message with the players…perhaps in a way that didn’t grate or grind.
At the same time, Tocchet was popular and accessible. He no doubt served as a safe haven of sorts where guys could air their grievances and sound off. A buffer between Sullivan and the team.
I don’t know if that buffer exists any more. If it does…perhaps through Sergei Gonchar and/or Mark Recchi…it’s obviously not the same dynamic.
It doesn’t help that “big” personalities such as Ian Cole, Ben Lovejoy and Ryan Reaves have moved on…perhaps at Sullivan’s behest as some members of the media suggest. I’m sure those guys served as a welcome distraction in the locker room.
As in any relationship dynamic, it’s our differences that provide the spice. I’m not sure it’s a good thing that all the guys have more or less the same personality traits. Nor is it necessarily a good thing that Sullivan’s voice is the only one the players hear.
I don’t lay our present problems entirely at our coach’s feet. There are myriad reasons why teams don’t win Stanley Cups year after year after year. So many things have to go right in order for that glorious event to occur, from the general manager assembling just the right personnel to the coach pushing all the right buttons to the players laying it all out on the line on a nightly basis. There’s more than a little luck involved, too.
Speaking of the players, they need to take a hard look at themselves in the mirror. They’re well-paid professionals, playing the game they love. Whether they like their coach…or the way he delivers his message…is a moot point. Our lack of passion and consistent effort is appalling. I can count on one hand the number of times our guys have played for a full 60 minutes this season.
Ultimately, they’re the ones lacing up the skates. They need to wake up, get over themselves…and start pulling together as a team.
Time’s a wastin’ and valuable points are slipping away. With it, perhaps the last real opportunity for this group to take a run at the Cup.
Hey Tor and Rick ,
Mike Sullivan needs to be fired. ASAP
Constant BAD LINES COMBOS / line shuffling that is killing the Pens AMONG OTHER THINGS I KEEP COMMENTING HERE.
Today’s line combos
Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Bjugstad-Malkin-Kessel
Pearson-McCann-Simon
Wilson-Cullen-Hornqvist
Pettersson-Letang
Dumoulin-Johnson
Maatta-Riikola
Blueger deserves to play and stay up here.
Other days with Malkin absence/ constant line shuffling
Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Pearson-Bjugstad-Kessel
Simon-McCann-Hornqvist
Blueger-Cullen-Wilson
Pettersson-Letang
Dumoulin-Johnson
Maatta-Riikola
Guentzel-Crosby-Bjugstad
Rust-Cullen-Kessel
Simon-McCann-Hornqvist
Pearson-Blueger-Wilson
Pettersson-Letang
Dumoulin-Johnson
Maatta-Riikola
You cannot expected Penguins to have consistency, urgency and chemistry with confidence to play together on the ice with these lineup and bad adjustments with tactics that don’t get a win. Sullivan is getting badly out coached and care to much a bout matches. I can go on and go
Murray needs to be trade . Pearson, Simon, Letang and Johnson . Johnson is a black hole on this team.
Bjugstad is better playing RW.
Mike Sullivan continues to play players where they don’t belong to seek their potential on the ice. He coaching the players he wants that will not go far.. etc..
Penguins are worse.. going back to November and October.
Everything is on the coach.
I will reply later . I will have something to say to Phil Krundle because something is off with you and you seems blind to a lot things surrounding Sullivan. Seems like you defend Sullivan to much and have a false narrative that doesn’t fit essentially great players that were ran of town . Especially Cole who was live by his teammates and still love by them. Sprong has nothing to do with my replies to you.
Hey Dee,
It would be really hard not to shuffle the lines when Malkin is in and out and you get two new centers. Basically 3 of the four lines have changed. I believe it very prudent of Sullivan to test and find out where the new guys fit in best and their respective abilities at said spots in the lineup.
I just commented on Cole in tOR’s last post.
Here is what I said:
“The Penguins went through years of Dan Bylsma who everyone claimed was too friendly with the players. Basically let them get away with anything.
Is Sully’s approach wrong? If he has rules and they are not followed over and over by a player that is constantly being reprimanded (Ian Cole was benched for locker room problems many times) what do you believe he should do?”
Hey Phil,
I just think you out of hand on a lot things surrounding Sullivan and this team.
I like some of your comments.
I believe you are very disrespectful towards TOR on his brutally honest opinions and observations that do have factual information to it.
Cole was not trade for locker room issues. You lost me there. Players were stunned and really sad that he was traded and scratched many times in a lot games.
Everything hit home to pens players that didn’t like it and didn’t comprehend Sullivan’s problem with him. Malkin and Crosby were the main ones among other players who hate it and it really set the tone for Sullivan to lost the room with Cole and Reaves departure, Letang and Sheary’s saga.
I repeat, repeat Cole was traded because mike Sullivan did not like him being friendly go lucky person ( same goes for MAF ,Reaves )he didn’t like that Cole couldn’t play on his off side on defensive parings to accommodate Hunwick who never had a spot on this team at all.
Cole was very liked and love from his teammates and other people . He was a leader. He great 4-5 defender than people will give credit to him.
Rutherford did not want to trade him. Mike Sullivan forced his hand.
Money that went to Hunwick , Johnson, Sheary could’ve easily giving Penguins chance to sign come to cheap deal where he wanted to stay.. Penguins getting a cheap RHD or going after a 3C I’m 2017 – present.
Mike Sullivan has a habits of consistently inconsistent tweaking lines that has no spark or justification to get players to get going on the ice. He wants players to play multiple positions that they are not capable to do so.
Cole was playing very good until he got hit in mouth with a puck during game with Predators and Penguins at PPG Arena ( Nov 7 2017) Mike Sullivan was shuffling poorly defensive pairings. Playing players on their off sides on natural pairing. Accommodating Bad Hunwick and mismanaged Letang’s situation. Continuously scapegoating wrong players. He decide to play Cole on pairing where he couldn’t play on the right side. Etc.. when couldn’t play the ‘right way’ on his right side he got scratched and poorly ran out of town.
Mike Sullivan has continuously run great essential players out of town. He expects players to players multiple positions and they don’t bench them for incompetent players who wouldn’t be in this league.
I don’t care for what Mike Sullivan happens to do. There’s a growing fast trend with Sullivan where he’s very out of ideas, stubborn, ego, favoritism and do not know how coaching players in this league. I can keep going on .. He has his players that do not belong on this team and shouldn’t be playing over certain players that has proven their worth behind two elite centers..
Same thing that happened with Cole it happened with Jamie Oleskiak. Mike Sullivan is going out his way accommodate Johnson where Oleskiak was scratched and trade for no reason. Oleskiak was more valuable and reliable on both sides of the puck. He out playing Johnson, Rikkola and Pettersson.
Players that’s fit this team and can really help this team get tossed and it backfires all the time.
He doing the same thing with Bjugstad. Bjugstad is capable of playing RW for Crosby’s line . He was fine. Great positive from eye test and stats with 75 percent Corsi.
Bjugstad’s 6th game in PIT. He’s played 3C with Rust and Kessel, 2C with Pearson and Kessel, 1RW with Crosby and Guentzel, and now 2LW with Malkin and Kessel. Kessel is not playing 2LW , Bjugstad is playing 2RW,Hornqvist is playing 4W and Blueger is getting scratched over Cullen and Simon is playing 3RW where he doesn’t belong in the lineup .
Mike Sullivan has been brutally bad for a very longtime . He was great his first season and has went downhill since last stanley cup run ..
We are mid way through the season constantly bad line combos mad among things needs to stop..
Maybe it’s just me .i have never liked him as a coach and never thought he want a long term coach for this team I want like him to be fired and Penguins to have solid lines combos that show their potential and strengths on the ice contend for a cup.
The fact that it’s halfway through February and Sullivan still have no clue who are playing with Sid & Geno on a day to day basis feels like a problem. experimenting needs to stop..
You can defend Mike Sullivan all you want. While diminishes players and rooting for Sullivan’s brutally coaching stuff.
You remind me of some people who defend Sullivan while constantly calling to trade Malkin, Crosby, Kessel and Guentzel..
Mike Sullivan cannot handle challenges and adversity on this team. Etc..
Fans and supporters play their money for the players all the time. Mike Sullivan means nothing at all. Nhl coaches have a short shelf for a reason.
Mike Sullivan mismanaging Players and their usages a lot on this team.
There nothing great about him at all. Rick Tocchet has a fine line with know how to be hard nosed with players and be able to be friendly with players where they can be themselves and know that he understands very much parts of being a player in this league. He knew when to adjust and play the players that belong on the team. He put sully in his place and made job easily where everything was handled easily for Sullivan to look like he’s was great coach. He’s isnt. He’s ok good . Nothing else.
Mike Sullivan wants to everything like ‘play the right way’ bs and play the positions that have nothing to do with there skillsets.
Penguins players are shelf of themselves and very miserably playing uninspired hockey due to his over coaching, ego, favoritism and weak predictable system that cause players to look like a piece of sugar honey ice tea through teams heavy urgent forecheck .
My takes have nothing do with Mike Sullivan being friendly or not. It goes beyond that . I stated it several times.
I repeat, repeat everything should be about Crosby and Malkin..
Sully is the big part of the problem. Rutherford take blame as well. At end of day, Rutherford gives to much leeway and Rutherford happen to put the foot down..
Mike Sullivan is over coaching and simple in desperation mode where he is out touch, incapable, running out ideas and hurting this team.
He cannot face challenges in his face. He’s out his league…
He’s wasting Crosby and Malkin.. It’s bad enough Malkin seems not confidence to come back and seem very miserable..
Stars are struggling And really have no confidence..
Mark Reechi and Mike Sullivan should be fired.
He badly communicates with players and scream to much..
If you are not one of his guys or he doesn’t like you he use your wrong and run you out of town.
Dee,
I gave tOR brutally honest opinions back. I apologize for that.
Here is a quote from Ian Cole since he has been traded “I never really had any personal issues with Sully. I can’t speak for him, but I’ve never had anything against him. I think he’s a great coach.”
Here is a quote from Jason Mackey of the Post Gazette “Many of the reported issues between Sullivan and Cole involved how much Cole talked to the media”
Rutherford had been trying to sign Cole and Cole wouldn’t sign. Maybe Rutherford like any reasonable thinking person didn’t think a 5-6th defenseman was worth $4.25 mil for three years. That was the main reason Cole was traded.
If you look at Rutherford’s trades, that is what he has always done. Trade a player that won’t sign before deadline so you don’t lose the guy to nothing over the summer.
I’ve already told you what I heard Cole say on NHL radio and you don’t believe me, so I won’t waste my time.
If you believe that Sullivan disliked Cole because Cole was a “friendly go lucky person” and that is why they traded him, then you have an argument that I am unable to debate.
Rick – Good article
Personally I put more of the blame on Rutherford – From experience I know Coaches decisions are not often excepted by the general public / media. When you’re involved with individual players daily you have a different perspective on there strengths and weaknesses and their value to the team.
Also, i believe Rutherford has done a poor job adapting to the subtle changes taking place with the NHL game. Teams have not only matched the Pen’s speed since winning the cup their doing it with size and physical play. He keeps trading for skilled players who under-achieve.
Last night although losing to the lightning the Pen’s played inspired hockey – I hope Rutherford took notice of the enthusiasm on the Pen’s bench when both Blueger and Johnson dropped the gloves “this brings teams together” – what pulls them apart is when you allow your top players to defend themselves.
Not trying to stray away from the initial topic but I think Sullivan has one of the toughest jobs in the league. Everyone thinks because we won two cups that Rutherford can do no wrong and as long as you have Malkin and Crosby your
golden. Crosby is a coaches dream / Malkin not so much – People want to criticize Sully for separating Kessel & Malkin “Jesus” what was he supposed to do? Up until
the week before Malkin was injured their was only (1) player in the NHL with a worse plus/minus rating. At that time Malkin and Kessel had a combined – 35. If anything Sully should be commended for making the move – he’s trying to allow Malkin to play his game with less talented wingers who are conscious of their responsibilities defensively.
To summarize i agree with Phil – teams would be lining up to Sullivan if Rutherford decided to use him as a scapegoat. Sullivan hasn’t become a bad coach overnight. I agree he can be stubborn / hard headed and his personal clashes with players drive me crazy but he’s still the best guy for the job.
I do think they miss Tocchett….im not giving up on Sully though.
I so agree re: Tocchet’s value.
nope
Hey Rick,
Great Stuff. I have been defending an aspect of Sullivan’s player choices against tOR. It is hard for me to be against Sullivan’s personnel changes and choices when the ones that he has made along with Rutherford have done so well for the team. That and they won’t let me in the locker room to know what is really going on.
I really think it is hard to say Sullivan has lost the team like Quennville or Therrien.
Therrien was way out of the playoffs to the point if a huge turn around didn’t happen the Pens were going to miss them. He had also never won a Stanley Cup.
I created this blog 10 years ago because at the games you could tell that the players had actually given up trying. You can tell at the games if the players have quit on the coach. In fact my entire reason for starting Penguinpoop was in hopes the Penguins would rid themselves of Therrien before it was too late.
Joel Quennville won a long awaited Cup for the Blackhawks and then lost in the second round twice. After Chicago lost in the second round the second time to perennial loser the Coyotes 4-2 the Chicago fans were calling for his head.
Quennville went on and won two more Stanley Cups in the three years after that. He had been eliminated from the playoffs twice in a row first round then missed the playoffs and was out of the playoffs when he was canned at age 65.
This season The Penguins have been playing without arguable their best defenseman Justin Shultz. The guy leads breakouts and can completely turn a game around.
Malkin missed the last three games with an injury and the Pens have been trying to mix in 2 new centers somehow. Basically for Sullivan three of his four lines have been disrupted. The Pens have lost three in a row. One was an away back to back game, one in overtime and one that was just a flat out ugly loss.
If Malkin wasn’t hurt maybe the Penguins win all 3 games and the Penguins would be in first place and this conversation never happens.
Would it make sense for the Penguins to fire the only two time winning Stanley Cup coach in the NHL right now because of three mid season games?
A guy who’s only playoff loss in three years was to the team that won the Stanley Cup?
Maybe we should ask one of the 12 NHL teams that have never won a Stanley Cup. If they don’t laugh it is because they are being polite.
People point to the very few players that left the team disgruntled because Sullivan didn’t give them the playing time they wanted or weren’t put on the top two lines like they felt they should be. I Point to long time NHLer Matt Cullen who has played under who knows how many coaches. Cullen said that Sullivan is the best coach he has ever played for.
Hey Phil,
Outstanding thoughts. And I agree, it’s really tough to say whether Sullivan’s lost…or is in the process of losing the team a la Therrien.
Nor did I intend to draw an apples-to-apples comparison between the two coaches, although it is awfully ironic that when I decided to write this article…totally on the spur of the moment…they’d coached the exact same number of games for the black and gold.
I’ve heard (second hand) that the players really grew to dislike Therrien toward the end of his regime and that he really was a hard guy. There’s nothing to indicate our current crop of players feel the same way about Sullivan.
Excellent point about Cullen’s comment. And “Cully’s” played for more than a few coaches during his long career.
Ditto your point about missing Justin Schultz virtually all season. We’ll see what kind of an impact he makes when he comes back. Hopefully a very large positive one.
I do feel Sullivan’s become too tracked in on using line juggling as a tactic. When the Pens went on their hot streak through December and January, he was much better about leaving his combinations alone. I think a calmer hand now might help, too.
I also agree with a comment made by Dejan Kovacevic and repeated on PP by “55 on Point” that at times Sullivan appears to be coaching the team he wish he had rather than the one he has. And that perhaps he may need to tweak his system rather than trying to force the team to fit his framework. However, that’s just my opinion. I’ve coached zero games…Sullivan’s coached hundreds and won two Cups.
I also feel, at times, that he’s allowed his personal feelings or preferences to dictate personnel moves…most notably with Cole and Reaves. I’m sure every coach does this to a degree. The reason Craig Adams hung around for so long was that he reminded Dan Bylsma of…Dan Bylsma. But I think it’s hurt the team…not to mention the locker room dynamic…in some instances.
Having said that, I’m certainly not advocating that the Pens fire Sullivan. First of all, who would we get to replace him? We’d need a heavyweight coach to handle all the heavyweight personalities. And even if one were available (Quenneville?) could he do as a good a job as Sullivan?
Probably not.
As I’d mentioned in my write-up, Sully’s intelligent, forthright, thoughtful, well-spoken and fiery. And make no mistake…he wants to win…maybe sometimes a little too badly if there is such a thing.
You also made a great point about Quenneville…he had a few comparative off seasons mixed in with the Cup triumphs…but Chicago stayed with him, obviously because he was a quality guy and coach.
The same goes for Sullivan.
We’re all human and no matter how accomplished we are, there are always things we can learn. Perhaps this season will be a learning experience for Sullivan that will make him an even better coach down the road.
Rick
Hey Rick,
I don’t believe that Sullivan is perfect by any means. I also believe he over coaches lots of times. Especially with the line changes. He tries to match them to the other teams sometimes before a quality line fails against the other teams.
I know what Kovacevic & 55 on the point are saying about coaching the team he wishes he had rather than the one he has. We know that Sullivan knows what it takes to win the Cup. Is it possible that he knows that the team needs to play a different way to win?
Like you Rick, i have followed the team since the ’70’s. I have seen a lot of coaches come and go. I could not name a coach of the Penguins that has done a better job. When you have a great coach you keep him.
If the Pens fired Sullivan today, tomorrow there would be 20 GMs willing to fire their coach immediately if Sullivan would coach their team.
Hi Rick,
What a pleasant surprise to see that my comment was a source of inspiration for your article! It’s not that obvious to write something when ideas don’t come easily. I’m glad that my comment was insightful enough to inspire you!
I really like your blog because it offers a different point of view. Sometimes, in the mainstream media, journalists and beat writers are not as loquacious for several reasons. It is good that a blog such as the PenguinPoop can provide us with various information and insights.
So, Rick, TOR, keep up your good work! :o)
It could be Mike, but let’s face facts, our core is just over 30. In hockey that is on the down side of a career. I think our window is very close to closing, very.,
We have a goalie that seems to be made of glass, I love Murray, but injury prone and a weak glove.
Malkin looks lost in the few games I have seen this season so far, he has no wingers and tries to do too much by himself.
Maybe with Justin returning, that might help But I think our time is up as a contender……prove me wrong Pen’s!!!
Well said Pens 4 Ever.
I fully agree with your observations.
There are many new kids on the block
Who have more talent than we do.
Hope they Prove me wrong.
Cheers
Jim
Pen’s4ever
I do agree with your assessment. This is one of the reason’s I thought Rutherford should of moved Letang in the off-season. It was a chance to add a quality player or two – a draft pick or prospect and start the process to prepare for life without Crosby / Malkin.
Athough putting together a decent season I’m still not a huge Letang fan – I mean I could put of 50 or 60 points playing with Crosby, Malkin and Kessel on the Power Play. Letang IMO is a shoot you in shoot you out kind of player.