The Penguins; “Harder to Play Against?”

1. I get it…..it’s a blog site….I am sick of reading about Kessel and how bad a trade it was….he is gone ( thank god!!)
   Like I said before…I know what he brought offensively.. but it’s the way he played the game…no more comments on that.
   As far as GM Jim, I said it when they hired him..BIG mistake, he did a crappy job in Carolina, and now not so good in Pitt. Although this past draft was a good haul, but those players are future.
   Keep in mind fellow Pen’s fans….the window is basically shut.
   We are up against the cap, the D is old, Murray needs a new deal, Jim overpaid for Horny, Eric, Tanev ,Johnson..
   In 3-4 years it will be a full rebuild.
   That’s all I have..back to summer

   1. Well said Pen’s4 Ever… Agreed.

      What is totally missing in this discussion is the belief that the rest of the league has some how just stood still and they have not improved their teams. Yet with such minor changes due to lack of Cap space the Pen’s are somehow going to win a Cup in 2020.
      Honestly, take a serious look and see how much other teams HAVE improved since the 2019 Cup celebration and we have not kept pace.
      Given the stupid long term contracts and over paying for talent has put a noose around the Pen’s neck.Now we are going to pay.
      My bold prediction P4E, we will NOT make the playoffs in 2020. We will have no Cap space for Jimmy to be able to buy talent in February 2020 and no one wants to trade for a minor 5-6 d man or a 3rd-4th line forward. Plus God help us if Geno goes down for another injury or Crosby, we are done… Period.
      Jimmy says “We want to be a team that is harder to play against in 2020”. Wrong statement Jimmy. You need a team that can COMPETE with the much improved competition in the league in 2020, and as of today you do not have it.
      Thanks P4E!!

      1. Hey Jim,

         I wanted to keep the gloom and doom limited to the “Harder to play against”, what it really means and to only self inflicted wounds, so I didn’t mention the very likely rise of the Rangers and Devils to supplant our Penguins and the Jackets as playoff contenders.

         If Sid or Geno go down for any long period, or Schultz, or Murray for that matter, this team, as constructed will miss the playoffs. Even if the team had Cap space to play with in Feb, JR sans Botrell has shown himself to be very bumbling and would only spend any Cap $$$ on the wrong player and perhaps an even worse contract than the team has now.

         The only real hope for the Penguins to even make the playoffs, let alone challenge for a trip to the divisional finals is that somewhere within WBS or anywhere else within the pipeline, there is prospect that miraculously matures over night and not only matures over night but is actually given a shot to play.

         So, Jim, I don’t think your statement is all that bold. I agree, barring something unforeseen, like significant injuries on the Caps, Isles, Rangers, Devils, and Canes roster, this team is poised to be on the outside looking in.

         1. The Other Rick

            Good article to read regarding Kessel
            https://thehockeywriters.com/penguins-trade-kessel-keep-malkin/

   2. Agreed P4E,

      The window is, if not shut, barely opened, opened so small I I cant see any light coming in. What galls me is that our management shut the window themselves, faster than it needed to be shut with bad trades and bad signings.

      The worst may yet be coming. This team may end up trading Jarry. With as frivolous as JR has tossed good money after bad there will be no $$$$ money to keep Murray and/or Schultz. Bob’s got $10 mil for 7 years with the first 5 of those years a full NMC reducing to a M-NTC NMC the last 2 years. His regular season stats have been pretty much equal to Murray’s but he has choked every playoffs. Murray will be able to ask for at least $1 mill more a year and as of this moment they only have a little over $19 million to spend on Murray, Schultz, MCCann, and Kuhan, and that number could still shrink even more with the way JR throws $$$ away on or for bad contracts.

      If most four all of those players have weak seasons then it may be doable, or we may not care if they leave, but who wants that. If more than 1 of those players has an off year, the window will unarguably, by anyone, be shut this year and we will be back on the bottom hoping to win the draft lottery.

2. Thank you! Been saying this about Sully for awhile now and the Pittsburgh media just kisses his ass shamefully. Yeah, he won two cups. And an even bigger yeah would be that this elite team won those cups. Yet the success went straight to his head and he reverted to the norm. And that norm goes beyond just Kessel. Or Sprong. Or Ian Cole.
   Mike Sullivan has a history of alienating players going back to when he began coaching. When Torts was fired in New York it wasn’t him that the players took issues with or said they wouldn’t play for. It was Mike Sullivan who the players took a stand against with the GM and said if he came back the following season then they didn’t want to.
   And his attitude of not wanting to COACH younger players?
   Ummm, you get paid for COACHING THE TEAM! And then he flips out when players aren’t doing their job yet he doesn’t do his. I was pissed when he was resigned because the cracks I mentioned above are now starting to show and there’s a reason for this.
   Just watch. Those divides will only grow larger and they sign him to a lengthy extension. Another GMJR move that is systematically dismantling the Penguins

   1. Hey Josh,

      I didn’t know about the NYR issues with Sully, just looking them up.

      Just read Adam Rotter (Jul 2, 13) quoted Larry Brooks of the NY Post warning Vancouver not to hire Sully as an assistant to Tortorello because the Ranger players took more issue to Sully than Torts.

      I have read a lot of Comments from fans about this but I haven’t found Brooks original article that Rotter quoted. Can you help me out here. I would love to see what the players may have said, if Brooks shared it.

3. Rather than continue in the small spaces below,

   Hey Mike,

   Question, is me beating the drum to have Sullivan and Rutherford fired the only evidence you have to offer for me still smarting over Sprong? Do you think that me citing Cole, Reaves, Malkin, Kessel, Maatta, Fleury (in terms of paying Vegas to take him), Hunwick, Johnson, and now Tanev signings, unprofessional media campaigns to blame Kessel for 2-playoff losses, publicly admitting that the team wasn’t paying attention to the coach, pathetically posturing like he was going to trade a player with a NMC, creating an environment that a player who was happy with the city and who has a very restrictive L-NTC. With all of these premises to support my reasoning for firing a tyrant coach and bumbling GM, you limit your rebuttal to I am smarting over Sprong? Hmmm

   First quick note Mike, for the bulk of my working life, I have been in a position of responsibility with many people reporting to me. At 20 years of age, I brought a High School friend into my office for a corrective action twice and then terminated him when said HS friend failed to remediate. For me friendship is friendship, business is business and hockey is a business.

   I have always believed Murray was the better of the 2 goalies MM or MAF, but I was not one of the people felt you had to pick one and dump the other. I liked MAF. I still like MAF. I would have loved to have a world where the team could keep both and MAF retire a Penguin. However, I did understand that under the rules of the expansion draft, the team had to expose 1 of the 2 to the draft and that MAF was the more logical choice. I find JRs payment of a draft pick to take MAF rather than risk losing luminaries like Sheary, Simon, Kuhnhackl, or even Rust (I do like Rust but let’s face it MAF or Rust? – Would have rather lost Sheary, Simon, or Kuhnhackl than Rust)

   However, the fact that you seem to believe me to be unidimensional makes me wonder if you are smarting over me lambasting the move to sign Tanev to a 6 year $3.5 mil per year contract to play 4th line, despite that fact Angello and/or Johnson would serve in that role just about the same or even maybe better and they would be doing at considerably less than $3.5 mil per year for 6 years.

   Or perhaps your derision of Kessel causes you to ignore all the evidence against Rutherford and Sullivan.

   I wasn’t in Boston or Toronto when Kessel played in those Cities. Perhaps he did wear out his welcome in those cities. When he was in Boston, he was 19-21, a kid. It is very believable that it was him. Toronto? Possibly? It may also have been the frustration of 1 playoff appearance in 11 seasons. However, it is true that Kessel has only played on 3 teams in 13 years. Galchenyuk is on his 3rd team in 8 years. Kessel didn’t go to his 3rd team until his 10th season. It is very probable Galchenyuk will be on his 4th team next year, a lot faster than Kessel.

   People change. Maybe Kessel was a problem before, but the preponderance of evidence suggests Sullivan is the problem here. Kessel didn’t question Sullivan’s coaching in the media after the Caps loss 2-playoffs ago. No, in fact he worked his posterior off and came out flying until Sullivan once again shuffled the lines and pairings rather than coaching his team. Come playoff time he was one of the few players that showed up. After the sweep, Kessel wasn’t the one that immediately ran unprofessionally again to the media and started whining about the none of the coaches listening to him.

   Yes, the Penguins can be successful again without him. Eventually Crosby and Malkin will move on and the Penguins will eventually move on from those losses as well. But thus far, the team hasn’t shown the wherewithal to make the correct moves to be successful without him. Instead their unprofessional media campaign to make Kessel’s life miserable enough to be willing to leave, they threw away any leverage to get value in return. They shot themselves in the foot. Such stupidity needs terminated.

   Team Chemistry is important, that is why you don’t trade an Ian Cole. If you are the coach even if you don’t like him, you work with him. And I did pick the Blues this year to win it all. I picked all but the Caps Canes series which in turn made the Canes Isles series a loss for me, but they were the only 2 losses I suffered this year. I didn’t pick them because of Chemistry. I picked them in part because they fired their coach and in part because teams were taking them lightly. They snuck in under the radar.

   If St louis gets to the Conference Finals this year, you and Phil have room to Crow. If they don’t will you admit that it was a fluke last year? Or will you continue to make excuses?

   I would love to be wrong here. I would love to have had to meet Phil in Market Square at the end of the Cup Parade and say you were right to tell me to keep the faith. I would have loved to have had do that the year before too.

   I was calling for Johnston’s firing before the end of his first season. No one listened to me. Most people, even those on these boards told me to keep the faith. None said, well Rick you were right. By January after he was fired, I saw a fire in the eyes of this team and began to believe while most on these boards were so used to the SOP they were still doubting thru the playoffs. No one said Rick, you were right. The next season I said that the only way the team would repeat is if Murray and Fleury stand on their heads because the defense was already dissolving. MM and MAF had 5 shutouts. Still you doubted me. Two years ago, especially after throwing away Cole, Reaves, Gustavsson, and a 1st rnd pick for Brassard instead of holding out for Pageau, I said they wouldn’t even get to the conference finals. Again, I was right. This past year I said the team would have a slim to no chance of beating the Isles while most people were claiming the Pens would win in 6.

   Maybe some day you will be right. At some point I will be wrong. So far though, it hasn’t happened. Rather than taking an aggressive attack against what I write, do you think that it would be better to simply say, I hope you are wrong Rick?

   1. The Other Rick

      It wasn’t an aggressive attack on you but away to let you know its
      time to let it go. It’s not about being right or wrong but you’re drawing
      a conclusion on a very small percentage of the facts.

      Not getting to Personal but I spent 15yrs as a Div 1 college coach
      and the last 14yrs in a Pro teams front office. I better than most
      can understand the internal struggles that management deals with
      when it comes to the general public / media.

      Is so easy to create your own scenario’s and manipulate the info
      you received thru the media “It’s human nature” and you have every
      right to your opinion. What I will tell you is the dynamics are totally
      different when your living in a situation daily – at practice, travel,
      team meals, film, etc….etc….. – Decisions are made for the good of
      the organization and teams future.

      i could go on and on and write a 3-page letter but I won’t. You mentioned
      Sullivan’s unwillingness to develop players “I will respectfully dispute this
      claim” – Sullivan was solely responsible for the development of the following
      players while at Wilkes Barre – Guentzel, Rust, Wilson, Kuhnackl, Rowney
      and Sheary – These players played a huge part in helping us win the Cup.

      The Other Rick – Sullivan has done a really good job – he’s an excellent coach
      but he’s human – There are situations I believe he could avoid and I also
      criticized him at times “unfairly” – we don’t have all the facts and again its easy
      to draw our own conclusions.

      I will pass along to you a some advice I received from several Hall Of Fame
      Coaches – Stats are for losers and Numbers lie – those never translate into
      winning games. People look at Kessel’s production and think how can the
      Pen’s trade him – I don’t have all the facts but here’s what I do know – Phil is
      one of the worst defensive forwards in the NHL and what’s really frustrating
      is he’s capable of being at least average – you see it in spurts. Plus/Minus
      ratings can also be manipulated but do you realize how hard it is to have an
      82pt season and be a -19 ??

      I was dictating while driving – I hope there aren’t to many glitches!

      The Other Rick – I always enjoy reading your stuff and I do respect your
      opinion – I think I speak for others who follow Pen’s Poop that its not as
      enjoyable when you keep beating a dead horse. Sullivan is our Coach
      and Rutherford GM – together they did the unthinkable and won two Cups
      back t/back in the Salary Cap era. Let’s get on board.

      Mike

      1. Mike,

         Have you ever read Sun Tzu?
         I was asked that recently by a retired Colonel?

         We often agree on things, particularly the need for the team to get tougher. However, I would rather the team not sacrifice talent for toughness. There are players out there cheaper and more talented than players the Penguins have added.

         When I write my subject material is often dictated by what is currently happening. The subject of this post was determined by the number of times I have read articles and posts, or have been in or privy to discussions on “Being harder to play against.”

         After the draft I wrote about how I liked Poulin and Legare. After the Maatta trade I wrote about how I was intrigued by Kahun. Even in this piece, before criticizing MS and JR I noted that not all of the teams moves were bad.

         Perhaps the problem here is we are now at a point of disagreement.

         When I mentioned about my early life and terminating a friend of mine from HS I only mentioned that as evidence that I don’t care about who I like or dislike, I only care about winning. I am not smarting over any players departure, at least not from a personality point, only possibly from the point of were the separation leaves the team. I was intentionally ambiguous about everything else from that story.

         I do respect the fact that you work in the front office of a major league team. I know many people that have and a lot that still do. In fact, there was a day not that far back, while at a Penguin game, a High School teammate of mine came up from behind me with a couple of security guards to tease me. He asked the security guards to check my ID because he didn’t think I was who I claimed to be. Incredulously I gaped and said, “I never told you I was anybody yet.” He started laughing because I didn’t recognize him in his suit. A moment after I finally recognized him we started laughing. I guess I never really looked to closely at the front office staff before the.

         From Rutherford’s standpoint you could say that his team won the unthinkable 2-Cups, but Sullivan inherited that team and that team was loaded with many players that had been there and done that. 4 years later, this team is now taking on Sullivan’s mark and is not winning Cups but getting swept in the 1st round.

         From a Rutherford standpoint, the question becomes was it Rutherford that built this team, Bottrel or the combination. Neither Rutherford nor Bottrel have necessarily looked as good after the 2nd CUp and Bottrel went up to Buf.

         I do agree that not too many winners look at stats, that is why there are so precious few dynasties anymore. Winners today often spend too much time celebrating their victories and not looking for areas of improvement. So they quickly fade (too early to say but maybe the Caps and Blues).

         Losers have to look at stats to see where they are screwing up.

         If the Penguins were winning, few would be stat watching. Most would be celebrating. But they aren’t. And any potential improvement the team may have gotten from the Draft and Kahun was more than offset by the teams latest 2 trades. Yes, Tanev is a trade because to afford him they will have to give up a better player to get under the cap.

         Why did I ask about Sun Tzu?

         1. The Other Rick

            This pretty much say’s it all on the Kessel situation.

            https://pittsburghhockeynow.com/yes-pittsburgh-penguins-internal-struggle-was-true/

   2. The Other Rick

      In the Salary Cap era just winning the Stanley Cup is a huge accomplishment. Look at the Caps – great team with all the pieces – not only couldn’t they get
      back to the finals they failed to get thru the 1st round.

      St. Louis won with “WIT” players “Whatever It Takes” – this is something the
      Pen’s sorely lacked last season. They weren’t willing to make the necessary
      sacrifices it takes to win the Cup.

      i won’t be crowing whether St. Louis gets back to the Finals or wins another
      cup – I will be crowing if our Pen’s find away to get there.

4. Hi Rick, see you at the gym tomorrow. Too much here to absorb…Pens will be fine next season, no worries here…

5. What is harder to play against than a team loaded with high end talent?

   St. Louis Blues Stanley Cup Champions 2019. Loaded to the gills with top end talent. Still can’t figure out how they landed all of those players.

   1. Where were they last year? the year before that? The year beforethat, etc, etc.

      Start with the most common denominator and work from there.

      Over the last 10 years Pgh (Crosby, Malkin etc), Was (Ovie, Kustnietsov, Backstrom etc), Chi (Kane, Toews, Bufygulien, Hossa) have pretty much ruled.

      Not only did Sullivan and Rutherford trade away more talented goal scoring, but they traded away better defensive talent. Kessel has had a better EV +/- than Galchenyuk and When Rust gets axed to make room for Tanev, they will lose more offensive talent as well as defensive talent.

      St Louis didn’t trade Tarasenko for Buchnievich (which is the equivalent loss in combine offense and defense) that the Penguins just traded.

      AS I have said over the last 2 years when you chose to argue with me, I hope your right. I would rather publicly proclaim you a Hockey Genius for sticking to your guns in the face of a crumbling franchise at their victory parade to Market Square, but alas, my pessimism has been correct. I was one of the first to publicly believe back in 2015-16 but common sense tells me it ain’t happening.

      1. This year all of the top heavy teams got eliminated first round or didn’t make the playoffs. Tampa Bay, Toronto, Washington, Vegas, Penguins all eliminated first round.

         You’re upset about Rutherford and Sullivan not changing anything and then for changing things.

         Your saying Sullivan didn’t help the team win the Cup it was the players, then when the team doesn’t do well it’s Sullivan’s fault.

         Are you smelling what the rock is cooking?

         Rutherford has rolled with the punches and put together a team that will be hungry for another win. He did away with the self centered players and players who were satisfied to rest on their laurels.

         I noticed you went back the last 3 years on player stats above.

         Doing the same with Sullivan and Rutherford:

         4th overall in regular season wins.
         3rd in playoff wins.
         2nd in scoring regular season.
         1st* (tied) in Cup wins.

         If you go back 4 seasons or the beginning of Sullivan, The above stats are even better.

         That’s damn impressive if not incredible numbers for guys that you describe as a bumbling comedy team.

         1. Which way are the trending? Up? or Down?
            Getting dumped in the 2nd round 2 playoffs ago and then swept last year. Hmm… Smells like I do know what is cooking and it is barely palatable pablum designed to CYA for Sully and JR.

            Yes, I do want changes, but I want changes for the better not for the worse. If Sullivan hadn’t whined in the media about Kessel then there could have been a reconciliation. If JR hadn’t backed the hypocritical coach then he wouldn’t have painted himself into a corner and lost any leverage in trading Kessel.

            If JR didn’t talk out of both sides of his mouth and claim that Kessel had asked for a trade, then Kessel wouldn’t have tweeted that No, he didn’t ask for a trade and JR would have saved some level of integrity.

            Tampa didn’t lose to a bum team, they lost to a team that ramped it up for the playoffs acquiring some big name players. Columbus didn’t lose to a talentless team in Boston. Calgary didn’t lose to a talentless Colorado team. Vegas didn’t lose to a talentles San Jose team. Colorado then didn’t lose to a talentless San Jose team.

            A GM that tries to force a trade on a player with a NMC is stumbling and Bumbling. A GM that tries to force a trade on a player with an 8 team L-NTC to a team not on the 8 team list because the coach burned his bridges with yet another player is stumbling and bumbling. A GM that paints himself so far into a corner that all he gets in return for the 11th leading scorer over the last 3 years for the 136th leading scorer over that same time span who isn’t even a better defensive forward is a joke. A GM that has to toss in a defensive prospect and a draft pick to get a prospect in return for that 11th best scorer in the league be ause of his big, big mouth does deserve derision.

            A coach that runs to the media and blames his players for a loss is no leader. A coach that whines that the players didn’t listen to him is nothing but a cartoon.

            I didn’t make this stuff up. This is what Sully and JR have subjected the Penguins and their fans to, sort of a mirror of the Steelers Kardashian program except that the Coach and the GM are the root not the players.

            No team with Crosby and Malkin get swept unless the coach is at fault. The Islander series is, I am afraid, a foreshadowing of the future.

            Welcome back to the Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk era of the Penguins. Stars swapped out for also rans.

            1. Which way are they trending??? You non stop compare apples to oranges. Which way was Kessel and Tanev trending?

               Tanev had more goals than Kessel per 60 minutes of ice time even strength last season and you know that.

               You continually manipulate stats to fit your extremely biased opinion.

               Should have we have traded Crosby and Malkin when they where trending down?

               Murray has been trending straight down.

               BTW, Didn’t know if you knew this, the Penguins have a minor league team in Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Pennsylvania and a player development coach for developing the players.

               Sullivan really doesn’t have the time.

               You should check it out, it’s really cool they system they set up for that.

               1. Kessel was trending up. He was averaging a point per game. Furthermore he, Malkin, McCann, Murray, and Schultz were the only ones that showed any signs of life in the playoff disaster.

                  Tanev rather static. His Corsi and Fenwick % and his teams S% when he was on the ice dipped a touched and his opponents S% was up a fraction but I am not sure if it was statistically significant enough to say he was trending downward.

                  You can’t trade Crosby or Malkin unless they want to go. They both have NMCs. All you can do is buy them out. That is the same mistake JR seems to make.

                  Murray started the season off roughly but was trending up bby seasons end. Remember we discussed this ad nauseum at the end of the year. After coming back from his injury, from Dec 15 onward he was tied for 2nd in the league in Ws (39) only behind Vasilevsky, tied for 10th in GAA (2.34), and tied for 4th in Sv% (0.930).

                  But don’t worry, he will be gone next year. The Penguins won’t have cap space to keep him between JRs $$$$ wasting and Bobrovsky’s Contract. Unless Murray pulls a Crosby, Malkin, MAF and takes a team friendly salary he is gone. So you can get your wish a Murrayless Penguin squad.

                  A Phil, did you know that the term coach means teacher? Furthermore, the AHL can only develop a player so far. The talent level there is limited. There are some truly NHL calibre players, some use-to-be s and a bunch of also ran never-was s.
                  You know like David Warsovsky, the RHD we signed instead of last years AHL’s 2nd All Star RHD Ethan Prow.

                  If Sullivan doesn’t have the time to finish developing players he is in the wrong business. Every Coach at every level is responsible for teaching and preparing his team and bringing along young players, particularly in the Cap era, when teams can’t really afford to pay ridiculously high salaries (in terms of raw $$$) to stars, and lower but equally ridiculously high (in terms of $$$/talent) to bottom 6 and pairs. The only way to have star players is to cycle young players into the line-up at low salaries. Therefore, to win in the NHL, the Coach has to make time to teach his young guns or as Chuck Noll used to say, get on with his life’s work.

                  And if they really did set the system up as you suggest, then that would explain why the team is sinking and up against the Cap. They really haven’t thought thoroughly through the modern hockey/Cap era and are foundering because of it. General fans, like you and me can be excused for being behind the ball, but they are getting paid to stay ahead of the curve.

                  But it looks like they may be stuck at the gate at post time.

               2. Phil

                  I’m with you – The Other Rick is still smarting over Sprong. He continually beats the drum to have
                  Sullivan and Rutherford fired – In this day an age
                  it’s a minor miracle to repeat as Stanley Cup Champs.

                  i keep telling my friends its nice to have talent but
                  will beats skill and in my opinion that’s what got the
                  Pen’s beat.

                  Kessel is one of those type players that although a
                  decent person and teammate he eventually wears
                  out his welcome – It was time for him to go and
                  regardless of what people think the Pens can be just
                  as successful without him.

                  Team chemistry is huge – The St Louis Blues had
                  one player with 77pts another with 68 and a third
                  with 54. There top offensive defenseman finished
                  with 41pts. They won because they had 20 guys
                  playing as one. As much as Pen’s fans don’t want
                  to admit it Kessel was having a negative effect on
                  the team.

                  i think the Pen’s will be fine – there younger,
                  faster and more physical with their new additions.

                  Go Pen’s

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