Penguins Update: Does Mike Sullivan Get a Bad Rap with Kids?

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• Rick,

  At what point did any of those prospects get TOI with anything other than has-beens or never-will-be s? Sullivan sets them up for failure so they do and he runs under the cover of the failure he created.

  Not only does Sullivan set the kids up for failure, his strategy is straight out of opposite world. Only Forwards named Sid and Geno are really allowed to follow their offensive instincts, all the rest are strapped to the plow, covering for defensemen who are streaking up ice and crashing the net. St. Ivany's Preseason Goal this year came on just such a play where he pulled a center drive. Marcus Pettersson has spent many a hours sitting in front of an opposing Goal while some Fwd has had to cover his vacant point - count the number of times this happens.

  Then everyone wonders why there is no depth scoring. The answer is simple people - wake up and smell the coffee - young forwards aren't scoring because they are covering the points for D - Men who are crashing the net. There are not enough pucks to go around for everyone to score. The lack of scoring comes from the fact that defensemen spend all of their lives learning how to prevent Goals not score them and Forwards can't score while covering for AWOL d-men.

  Add to that the number of odd man breaks developing from D-men being out of position and forwards who have been training all their lives to score Gs are now having to prevent Gs - something for which they are not trained and ill-suited, Goals are getting scored against embattled and in some cases and reckless in others, Goalies.

  Rick, I am not buying what you and Sully are selling. the shear number of failures in the prospect dept. is a not a matter of poor players but of a Coach either intentionally, teleologically setting kids up for failure or so bumbling, stumbling dumb that unconsciously he commits the very same crime.

  Unfortunately, few of the names you tossed about above where aver given a chance with any other team to evidence Sullivan's pathos.

  • Oh and Zohorna last season was 27 year old. He was at the end of his prime. He was no longer a prospect. He had withered on the vine, losing confidence being buried in the minors with a skill set that eroded from season after season of playing against too few opponents that could challenge him.

    But again it far simpler to not engage the pre frontal lobes of our brains and eliding the egregious errors Sullivan has committed for 7 seasons. Rather than question why Sullivan never gave Legare (who could fire the biscuit) a chance to skate top 6, or Angello or Zohorna opportunities to replace Hornqvist on the PP, everyone just helps cement Sullivan's lies. If Steve McKenna could pot 5 PPG in 02-03, Angello and/or Zohorna could have at least doubled that. Not only did they have comparable size (a couple inches shorter than McKenna's 6'8") but they had much softer hands.

    • Again, my friend, you assume that because a player is held back or misses a window, that it's an automatic death sentence.

      Not true. For whatever reasons, Stefan Noesen, had trouble breaking through to full-time NHL duty throughout his 20s. But he kept on pluggin' and earned a shot with the 'Canes at age 29 and responded with two really solid seasons. Perhaps the exception rather than the rule, but there are other examples as well. A.J. Greer, Michael McCarron and ex-Pens Mark Jankowski to name a few.

      Zohorna was given a legit shot with us last season to show what he could do. After a nice start, he literally faded into oblivion, and played much smaller than his considerable size to boot.

      Too, he had opportunities with Calgary and Toronto and did little to nothing with them.

      I'm going to turn this around on you. Who do you feel among the kids that came up through our organization would be even a 10-15 goal scorer if handled differently? And if you can think of an example, why weren't they given a shot elsewhere like the guys I mentioned above?

      Contrary to your narrative, every failure to develop isn't on Sullivan. Sometimes, as in Zohorna's case, it's just who the player is.

      Rick

      • Rick,

        I assume nothing. The scientific evidence states that a player exits his prime at age 27. Yes there may outliers as there always are but grasping at straws is just that, grasping at straws. The observable, outward evidence of dropping statistical output is backed up at the micro-biological level with changes in the myelin sheath surrounding neurons, slowing down conduction times of nervous impulses, slower recovery times from injuries, creep effect of lost flexibility and strength for those that have suffered serious injuries due to missed training times from the injury - could go on and on with the biological changes until you are nauseous. The point is, I never jump to conclusion but report facts.

        Zohorna was never given a chance to play. Over the past 3 seasons Zohorna was given 9:19 in TOI 5-on-5 over 50 GP, averaging 1.67 Pnts/60, compare that to Rakell: 14:14 TOI 5-on-5 over 171 GP averaging 1.82 Pnts/60. Jeff Carter 10:59 TOI 5-on-5 in 227 GP averaging 1.18 Pnts/60, Jason Zucker 13:32 TOI 5-on-5 in 119 GP averaging 1.9 Pnts/60, Drew O'Connor 11:30 TOI 5-on-5 in 147 GP averaging 1.6 Pnts/60, Evan Rodrigues 12:53 TOI 5-on-5 in 82 GP averaging 1.6 Pnts/60, Dominic Simon 9:05 TOI 5-on-5 in 55 GP (more GP if Simon hadn't chose to return to Europe) averaging 0.96 Pnts/60, Brock McGinn 11:34 5-on-5 in 124 GP averaging 1.3 Pnts/60.

        Even Bryan Rust didn't out play Zohorna that much, 13:47 TOI 5-on-5 in 203 GP averaging 1.95 Pnts/60.

        It is well past time to stop looking to excuse Sullivan's lack of talent assessment, inability to teach hockey to his players, and his favoritism playing. Your argument could possibly have validity if a small percentage of prospects eventually made it to the pros but when every player fails, it is the Coach!!!! Prospects die on the vine waiting for a chance to play in Pgh. Sullivan is the problem! not the players.

        • Rick,

          In no way shape or form does continually focusing on last season's numbers refute anything that I have written. The horse had already left the barn. Zohorna was no longer a prospect; he was at the tail end of his prime. Any argument to the contrary, any argument to the effect that Zohorna was still a prospect flies in the face of biological facts of aging. Therefore, to talk about Zohorna's play over last season only supports my contention that Sullivan causes prospects to wither on the vine. That is why I wrote about the last three seasons.

          Now look at the numbers I cite. Zohorna's 5-on-5 over the last 3 seasons was comparable or better than veterans Sullivan kept trotting out over Zohorna.

          There is an old saying, "Iron sharpens iron". However, Sullivan chose not to sharped Zohorna with iron, instead our HC kept burying the big Czech in the Jello of the AHL until the rust and corrosion condemned him to a never-was. I still remember when he first came up and the way he used his body to protect the puck and make slick little plays in traffic around the net.

          You can disagree all you want, this is still America, but opinions mean nothing in the face of facts.

        • I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, my friend. We're kind of like oil and water on this one.

          But that's okay. Oil and water may not mix, but both serve an important function...in life and on PP... :)

          Rick

        • Again, I disagree with your assertion.

          Zohorna WAS given a chance to play. He played at least 10 minutes in 12 of his first 13 games last season while averaging a shade under 12 minutes of ice time. Pretty much standard bottom-six usage. He did pretty well, too. Three goals and three assists.

          Then Zohorna started to tumble. Although his scoring began to dry up, he still saw at least 11:43 of time ice...with a high of 13:38, in three of his next four games. It was only after his dearth of scoring continued that his ice time really began to drop.

          Could Sullivan have stuck with him longer? Perhaps. Sully does seem to have a quick hook at times. But Zohorna didn't exactly do anything to force the issue, either.

          In my mind, he actually started to go south after a game with the Kings on November 9 when he absorbed a huge hit from Andreas Englund while cutting across the middle of the ice. Whether he was playing hurt after that or affected psychologically by the hit, Big Z didn't seem to be as involved after that.

          His numbers...a goal and two assists in 25 games following the hit seem to bear that out.

          My bottom line? As much as I would have liked Zohorna to make it, he was a fringe NHL player. He was who he was. I don't think any amount of coddling or kid-glove care from the coach was going to change that.

          Rick

• I would make the argument that Mario had a bad year then immediately got traded. Ty Smith, who was the player received in return, was never given a real shot at all. Sure, neither are likely to ever be a top pair defenseman, but are both categorically worse than every defenseman the Pens have iced in the last 5 years? Sully has more to prove this year than any prospect on this list. Sadly, we know his leash will be longer than all of theirs were combined. I hope we all get proven wrong in the best possible way.

  • I hear ya Nick.

    As I wrote in my article, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at all worried about how Sullivan will handle McGroarty & Co. I didn't include this in my article, but he seems to have a quick hook with kids especially. Like he makes up his mind about them very quickly and reacts accordingly.

    Still, when I took a look at the "prospects" (yes, in quotes) who didn't make it under Sully...well...none of them made it anywhere else, either. When he was given kids with legit NHL talent...Guentzel, Rust, Murray, Jarry, Sheary...he played them and they developed accordingly. Jake, Rusty and even Sheary to a degree exceeded expectations.

    Even though he was traded out of town (by Hextall...my guess against Sullivan's wishes) I'll include Marino, too. Who's proven to be a bit erratic by the way, alternating good seasons with not-so-good.

    Again, the proof will be in the pudding. The good thing is, I sense Sully genuinely likes this crop of kids.

    Rick

  • Amen Nick,

    Sully is given way too many chances, undeserved chances since he never gives the kids a chance.

  • *Marino. Gotta love autocorrect

    • HATE autocorrect.