Hey all. I just have a moment to put up a placeholder. Penguins GM Ron Hextall engineered two stunning trades today involving our defense.
In his first deal, he sent John Marino, 25, to New Jersey for Ty Smith, a 22-year-old puck moving defenseman, and a third-round pick in 2023. Hours later he shipped 28-year-old rearguard Mike Matheson and a fourth-round pick in 2023 to Montreal for veteran defenseman Jeff Petry, 34, and forward Ryan Poehling, 23.
Both Smith and Poehling are former first-round picks.
My gut reaction, aside from total shock? Thumbs down, although I need to take some time to wrap my brain around these moves so I can evaluate them properly.
Obviously, more to follow.
Hey Zeidel,
I have absolutely no issues with you stating your thoughts and opinions. You’re obviously very knowledgeable and have a great deal of passion for the Penguins and hockey in general.
However, I want to caution you about responding to the opinions of other readers in a style that’s confrontational and/or meant to belittle or make them feel self-conscious. We’re a community of sorts…you might say we’re all in this together…and the blog is intended to be a place where everyone feels welcome to offer their thoughts and opinions, without feeling like they might be put down for it.
Again, you can disagree…vehemently if like…but you don’t need to make statements to the effect of “just about everything you say is wrong.” That makes it personal. Going forward, try to offer your opinions in a respectful manner.
Thanks.
Rick
Hey everyone,
Had some time to digest these moves. The Pens had 9 defensemen and needed to move some. They moved two defensemen and they still have 9 defensemen.
I agree with Mike that Matheson was “arguably” the Pens best defenseman. Letang had his best season ever as a defenseman this season and Matheson still had more goals per 60 and very similar points per sixty even strength. The PP points Letang had were better but I would have put Matheson on the Powerplay because of his shot. Matheson was the best Penguins defender in the playoffs last year but Letang has playoff pedigree having helped the Pens win 2 Cups. I would have kept Matheson over Letang, but he doesn’t sell tickets.
Having lost Marino and Matheson the Pens don’t have a great back up plan if Letang goes out for the season. As a side note on all of this, I keep hearing the “who would eat Letangs minutes” if they traded Letang argument. Every defenseman on the team that wants more minutes would. I believe Letang’s minutes is more of a problem than anything else, but that’s a debate for another time.
The return for Marino was a small D guy with potential that can be sent down next year without waivers unless he plays over 36 games. Basically a solid backup D and Salary dump. I thought perhaps that would happen with Marino and Pettersson. With Ty Smith in the mix and able to be sent down, Ruhwedel’s days on the Pens roster are also probably numbered. This will allow for more flexibility on the Pens roster.
The Return on Matheson is really not that bad. Petry, a little older than would have liked, but I really like what I see in the utoob videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGnIBbgPNU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laOQzJXViTg
Don’t forget the other guy the Pens got. Ryan Poehling. First round pick a few years ago, had a hat trick in his first NHL game ever, loves to go to the net and has decent size. Perfect guy for Carters line has a huge upside, all at league minimum salary.
Pens still have 8/9 defensemen and Kapanen to deal with, so more is coming.
Hey Phil,
You bring up one of my pet peeves, people putting such a premium on eating minutes. I have never been an advocate of empty ice time. If a player is only on the ice to eat minutes, get him off the ice and put someone on the ice who is going to use that ice time to positive affect.
You also bring up a very good point, what if Letang goes down? I assume the team thinks Petry will step up.
Just about everything you say is wrong:
“Then he trades away arguably our best D-Man in Matheson”
I like Matheson, but he isn’t even in the ballpark with Letang. How many Norris votes did Mathespn get.
“Then he trades Marino for a small finesse player and a 3rd round pick”
No, he traded Marino for cap space.
“He still hasn’t addressed out lack of size and toughness.”
Yes he has, at least partially. Go look at the size of Rutta and Petry and Poehling.
” We would of had a better chance of contending by letting Malkin and Letang walk and using the extra resources to bring in 2 or 3 quality players.”
M&L aren’t quality players? They signed for 12.2 million. Exactly who are they signing to for that money to replace a 26 minute/night, 7th in Norris voting defenseman ,and a point per game center?
“Also, we could of added younger players which would allow for an easier transition with the re-build.”
In UFA, you don’t get young players. If they sign 29 year olds like Trocheck. Exactly how does that help a rebuild in three years? It doesn’t. Matheson at 28 is already too old to be part of rebuild. And they did add young player – Smith and Poehling and earlier Nylander. Incidentally, they show why you don’t rush into a rebuild; They first round picks who were part of somebody else’s rebuild just a few years ago.
I do agree with one point. They are unlikely to win the cup. So what? There are 32 teams, so winning the cup would be a statistical anomaly. The goal should be to try to win as much as possible while the team is capable.
Zeidel,
The beauty about opinions is, right or wrong, everybody has one.
I agree with some of Rick B’s opinions and some of yours,
Re Matheson: My opinion is somewhere between yours and Rick’s. Matheson ended up being better than I feared but I do not mourn his loss. He has a better shot than Letang and is younger (at 28 he is roughly now entering his prime as a D-man). Both are strong skaters and represented the only grit (save for Freidman’s occasional ice time) this team had on D last season. Letang is the better playmaker. In terms of money, getting Petry back, the team will be stuck with $2 million more in Cap hit, but Petry will clear the books 1 – year earlier than Matheson, the same year, Malkin’s contract clears.
Re Marion: you are 100% right, this was a salary dump. I would rather have dumped Pettersson but I would guess no one wants him.
Re size: this is a toss-up. You are right in terms of physical size but not in style of play, it was a push. Petry is 6’-3” and does play large, but Rutta and Poehrlng are 6’-3” and 6’-2” but they play small.
Re Malkin and Letang: Rick, sorry, Zeidel is right, I am not sure why you still bring this up. Had the team traded them at the trade deadline, they may have been able to recoup something resembling equal value for them. In FA, they haven’t a snowballs chance in the netherworld. Furthermore, since you both agree the team isn’t a contender this coming season (like the last 5), they team will need to make money somehow, Malkin and Letang retiring as Penguins will represent more in revenue than a new batch of Pat Falloons and Stephane Richer and that is all we would really get in FA.
My mistake in the Matheson trade we also gave up a 4th round pick. I’m not 100% sure why
we had to give up a pick. I like Petry but he’s on the downhill slope while Matheson game
is on the rise. It would seem to me we should of received a pick or at the very least Matheson
for Petry and Poehling.
Jim
I respectfully disagree – Hextall avoided making the tough move of letting both Letang and Malkin walk. Then he trades
away arguably our best D-Man in Matheson for another finesse forward and a 4th round pick. Then he trades Marino
for a small finesse player and a 3rd round pick – he basically gave these two players away. “Head scratcher” I
understand he needs to clear cap space but do it with the right players – right now we continue to get older not
younger and this team isn’t close to being as good as the team that just got knocked out in the 1st round. He still
hasn’t addressed out lack of size and toughness.
Jim theirs no way he can possibly think this team has a chance to contend for a Cup. We would of had a better
chance of contending by letting Malkin and Letang walk and using the extra resources to bring in 2 or 3 quality
players. Also, we could of added younger players which would allow for an easier transition with the re-build.
So right now our defense looks like this:
Letang (36)
Petry (34)
Rutta (32) Depth piece
Dumo (31) Declining
Pettersson (26) 177lbs
POJ (22) 170lbs
Ruhwedel (32) Depth piece
Friedman (26) Depth piece
NOT VERY IMPOSING – We traded a 24 and 28 year old??
Jim also moving Zucker would be a major feat – Hextall would need to
absorb a big chunk of his salary and the Pen’s would then have to find
another top 6 forward. I personally think we’re in big trouble.
Hey Mike,
I appreciate your feed back . I know we are in big trouble Mike !! I have been complaining about it since 2018 .
Nobody listened to me. Coach was the only one.
Must be my writing style but I am in agreement with most of what you said Mike. I made it very clear by my last statement to Rick that even with these changes the Pen’s can NOT win another cup because there are many other teams far better than us.The last ranking of the NHL teams I saw had us 11 th in the league.
My point simply is that Hextal is making many changes where he can and he is following the orders of the NEW OWNERS. By their previous sports acquisitions, the Fenway group are not hands off owners and they will definitely put their stamp on their team.
Regarding Zucker, if the goal is to win another cup in 2023 then do it. Forget about 2024 and beyond because we are done for as a team come 2024 or 2025 at the latest. Age will catch up to us. These long term deals will come back and bite us in the rear.
Thanks again
JIM
Zeidel
Letang is 36 – Matheson is 28. Letang has almost twice as many turnovers as everyone else on
the team. Matheson has huge potential and you could see him evolving last season right in front
of our eyes. Letang is overrated and that’s why he’s never won the Norris even while we won
two straight cups “oh that’s right we won the 2nd cup without Leturnover”.
Rutta is not a physical player at all – do you watch hockey?? Petry who I loved would of been a
great pickup 4yrs ago. “Your delusional”
I give it to Letang he had a career year but he’s 36 and giving him a 6yr deal is a complete joke. Also,
Leturnover playing 26min a game is a negative not a positive – that just leads to more giveaways.
Matheson just turned 28 and Marino 25. Both could of easily been part of a rebuild. I’m not sure if you
watch games ” I’m guessing no with your comments” but I respect your opinion even though it appears
to be coming out of left field. I have no problem with Hextall clearing cap space but you have to do that
by moving the right players. We gave up two regulars for two players that could end up in the minors.
1) You can’t have POJ and Pettersson as two of your top 6 Defenseman – 170lbs, & 177lbs respectively.
2) No way we should of been giving up a 4th for Petry and ????????? I can’t remember his name for Matheson.
3) I really don’t have a problem with the Marino trade – we saved around 3.6mil but we basically let him go
for a 3rd round pick. The Matheson trade that you claim was also used to clear cap space ended up adding
about 2.2mil to our cap number. Why make the trade??
3) Not just a matter of winning the cup but why bring back two players in their late 30″s that will set this team
back for the next 5yrs? No matter how you slice it up it’s a poor business decision. I don’t expect to win the
Cup every year but to be satisfied getting eliminated in the 1st round on 4 consecutive years is unexceptable.
This team is built for regular season success and playoff failure.
4) Hextall is obviously trying to keep Sullivan happy by adding some size but he rufuses to bring in anyone that
can physically force there will on opponents – Reaves, Gudbranson, etc..etc… Sullivan refuses to play these guys.
So he is basically trying to give the appearance he’s addressing our need for lack of toughness.
5) Again, I concede that Letang had a good year but with him that’s where it ends. Signing him to a 6yr deal is
a huge mistake.
GO PENS
Jim
My apologies. My comments were made out of extreme frustration. Watching FA and seeing players being
signed for a number that we can afford just eats me up. We’re still a finesse team that’s aging quickly.
I agree with all of your comments. We share the same concerns for this team 2 or 3 years down the road.
Always enjoy your input and opinions.
GO PENS
Hey Rick,
Hextal is busy. I may not like all the moves but at least he is going all in to try and win a Cup in 2023.
I cringe to think what the out look for the Pen’s will be in 2025.( The same year Crosby has officially fulfilled his commitment to the Pen’s). There is a serious risk with signing OLD players Rick to long term contracts especially if they are deemed to be 35 and older.
Hextal is in a tough spot. We as fans complain if he does nothing and only signs one or two minor players and then we complain again when he does this and shakes up the entire team. He can not win. haha …
I just hope he trades Zucker for a REAL producing left winger for Geno’s line and if we are going all in, what the heck, GO ALL IN and forget about the future. 2023 is the PRIZE !!!!
Problem is Rick even with all these moves, there is a lot more competition out there that we can not beat.
We still are NOT Cup favorites.
Cheers
Jim.